Can You Really Win Without Pitching? Part 1
12 Radical Proclamations to Change Your Selling Mindset
What if you could win more sales without the boilerplate sales presentation?
In this week's episode, Ben is joined by Brian Sooy, a Cleveland-based StoryBrand Guide.
Join us for part 1 of a 2-part series where we delve into Blair Enns' Win Without Pitching Manifesto.
Here’s a preview of the first six of the 12 powerful proclamations that sales leaders in every industry are embracing to revolutionize their approach to selling.
We Will Specialize
Be clear about the problem you solve for your client. This is StoryBrand 101: if your message isn’t clear, you’re confusing your customer.
Replace Presentations with Conversations
It starts with empathy. Listen to your customer and the problem they are facing. You can be their guide and tell them the plan without a sales pitch.
We Will Diagnose Before We Prescribe
Don’t try to solve the problem without listening. Unsolicited advice is often perceived as criticism.
We Will Rethink What it Means to Sell
Be their partner, you’re there to facilitate, not sell.
We Will Do with Words What We Do with Paper
You are an expert in your industry and unless you are in the proposal-writing business, that’s not what you should be spending your time doing.
We Will be Selective
It’s ok to say no to a client, or a project that just isn’t the right fit. The relationship should be a good fit for the client and your organization.
For more on how to ditch the pitch and reframe your sales mindset, tune into the latest episode of GaFB and stay tuned for the next episode for our wrap up with Brian Sooy.
Ep. 38:
Can You Really Win Without Pitching?
12 Radical Proclamations to Change Your Selling Mindset
Automated Transcript
Ben Lueders:
Can you really win sales without needing to pitch, without a traditional proposal or presentation? Our guest today thinks you can because he's actually done it.
Hey, welcome to Growing A Fruitful Brand, where we discuss how to create and grow a brand that makes the world a better place for you, your customers, and your employees. I'm Ben Lueders, founder and art director of Fruitful Design and Strategy.
My guest today is fellow StoryBrand Guide and agency owner, Brian Sooy. Brian is a personal friend of Blair Enns, author of this infamous little book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto. Brian actually designed this book himself. It's really beautiful, but in addition to designing it, he also attempts to follow its 12 radical proclamations with his creative agency, Aspire.
Today, we take apart the first six of The Win Without Pitching proclamations and Brian shares some firsthand tips on how to follow them. Although this book was written with creative agencies in mind, today's content is relevant for any business leader who regularly does sales, presentation decks or traditional written proposals and wonders if there could be a better way. Enjoy.
Here at Fruitful, we are big fans of Chris Do and The Futur Podcast, and one of the things that he's been talking about a lot is this little book, I've got it right here, Win Without Pitching. It's by a guy named Blair Enns, and it's a little manifesto, 12 proclamations he calls it, that are really revolutionary. They're maybe more from a creative agency standpoint, but really, there is some sales mindset that can really be applied to any industry, I think.
So I was talking to my business partner Raj saying, "Hey, we need to read this book and we need to talk about it on our podcast," and he was like, "Hey, we know a guy who might know a thing or two about this," and that guy is Brian Sooy who's joining me today. He's actually the designer of this little book. He's an amazing designer. He's a fellow StoryBrand Guide just like us. So I'm thankful that Raj had the idea to bring you on, and I'm excited to talk about this little book with you today, Brian.
Brian Sooy:
Thanks, Ben, and if you know what Blair looks like, I am not Blair. I will not try to impersonate Blair.
Ben Lueders:
That'd be so cool if you just did a Blair impersonation this entire time.
Brian Sooy:
My voice isn't as low in resonant. If you want to hear Blair, you have to go to the Two Bobs episode, but we're here on the Fruitful podcast.
Ben Lueders:
That's right. My first question to you, Brian, is before we dive into and we want to, we want to dive into each of these proclamations, this is actually going to be a two-part episode. We're going to do six of them today, and then we'll do six in the next episode, but my first question to you is, do you at your agency, Aspire, do you actually follow these proclamations? Do you follow this manifesto?
Brian Sooy:
We do follow this manifesto as closely as we can and as often as we can because as we all know, this whole thing is a polite battle for control between the buyer and the seller or the buyer, I'm sorry, the buyer and the expert. We are the experts and we're constantly just trying to have these conversations and circumvent this whole RFP process, doing long proposals where we're solving the problem ahead of time. So since the book was published in 2010 and having access to the content before and designing, it really became ingrained to the point where I've got some posters on the wall, have just a of the key principles on them. I think about them often because I refer people to the book. I did yesterday on Business Made Simple Community Flight School call because there were consultants there saying, "How do we do this with RFPs?" It's like, "You need to read this book."
Ben Lueders:
I've really never enjoyed doing a request for proposal. So if there's any way that I could get off the hook of having to do those, I'd be happy to adopt that practice.
Brian Sooy:
Well, I think there's some language in the book.
Ben Lueders:
Well, let's dive into it, but before we do, the big question in my mind is, does this really work? It sounds like such a lofty goal of being able to win someone's sale, win someone's business without having to do the whole pitch deck, the presentation, the proposal, going into that stuffy board meeting. Will people really respect you and get your business? Does this work for you?
Brian Sooy:
It does work for us. So I've made mistakes with it, but I've had some great wins using it as well. So just this week, I had a conversation booked with a prospect, and he was warm lead, so he was interested. We had about an hour and 10 minute conversation, and during the conversation, it just came up, "What would do working with you look like?" I gave him our minimum level of engagement. I gave him the range of what it's like to work with us on a monthly basis because the way Aspire works is primarily as a creative service partner or provider with companies who don't have a marketing team.
They said, "Well, what can we do in a short term?" I said, "Well, we could do this for this amount on a two-week period," which would've been still a significant amount of money. Since I'd primed him with a range, he said, "Well, what if it would look like 12 months at this figure?" and I said, "Yeah, we could do that because then we grow along with you." He said, "Well, send me what I need to sign and review," and by the end of the day, he had signed it. I came in the next morning and they're like, "Your proposal was accepted," and I was like, "Yeah, it does work."
Ben Lueders:
It does work. That's good.
Brian Sooy:
I didn't do it. I didn't pitch. I just listened. I didn't try to solve his problem. I just showed empathy. We had a lot of common connections. So a lot of these conversations are about, "Are we a good fit?" not, "Are you the right client for us?" "Are we a good fit for each other?" So by listening, I was able to literally namedrop a couple of people that we both knew, and that cemented the connection right there. There was a little bit of doubt in the conversation.
So as I heard those objections, I just listened to those and countered them a little bit with an offer to build in a three-month cancellation clause because that would still ... He was understanding. He said, "It's going to take you some time, so I want this to be profitable for you." I said, "Well, we can make with what we deliver in three months," and we weren't talking about deliverables, we were talking about outcomes. So this is a big language shift and a mindset shift. So I was able to overcome that trust that we were talking about a little earlier, the doubt that he had to where he was ready to sign that day.
Ben Lueders:
That's amazing. Well, you guys, you've heard it from Brian. This actually can work. I was telling Brian right before we started recording that full disclosure. Currently at the moment, Fruitful does not follow all the 12 proclamations of Win Without Pitching as of the time of this recording. Now a few of them, and we'll get into it, a few of them we do naturally do or some of them we're pretty close to, but a lot of it's a new mindset shift. So I'm really interested to hear from Brian today about how to implement this as an agency. Again, this is very relevant to creative agency owners like Brian and I, but I think it has ramifications and applications for lots of different types of companies and for just sales in general. Wouldn't you agree, Brian?
Brian Sooy:
Absolutely. I refer this book to people who sell catering services because they're going into institutions and trying to ... They have to respond to RFPs, financial consultants, insurance benefits advisors, just a wide number, even some ... A manufacturer's rep that was going in because they all go in, they have to, in a sense, feel like they solve a problem first, but there's an element of, "Let's diagnose it first," and ideally get paid for that diagnosis and then present what they need versus oftentimes, they've outlined in an RFP or expect to hear what they want. So it's our job to frame the problem first before we come up with a solution for them.
Ben Lueders:
Well, let's just dive right into it, Brian. Like I said, we're going to tackle the first six in this episode. We'll tackle the next six in the next episode, but let's just dive right into that. The first proclamation in the Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns is, "We will specialize." Here on the Growing A Fruitful Brand podcast, we've talked about specialization, about differentiation. We even had an episode where Raj and I got on and confessed that we had actually gotten away from our niche that we had started out a very specialized niche in a specific area, and that we had lost our way, and we're in the process of trying to respecialize, but, Brian, I'd love for you to unpack that first one. Why is specialization so important? Why is that the first of these 12 proclamations?
Brian Sooy:
It's because specialization gives you ... It narrows your focus. I think Blair points this out, and I've seen it. I see it with entrepreneurs no matter what, founders all the time, is we're attracted by whatever shiny object there is, "That sounds interesting so I'd like to ... Oh, I think I could solve that problem," because we're problem solvers at the core. However, when we are experts, we get to dive deep into an area. We have to remember that expertise can be horizontal, so it can be a application specialization, like for me, I am a brand architect, so brand architecture is just part of my DNA.
Then there's the vertical, which is more sector-based. Ideally, you find a horizontal and a vertical where you can align what you do with the world's greatest need and just only focus on those clients because then you're not reinventing your process or your method of working every time. You have a predictable, reliable set of outcomes that you can deliver and help clients either grow their business, generate more revenue, whatever the outcome they're looking for is. It's more profitable for you when you specialize.
Ben Lueders:
No, it makes a ton of sense. I think in that episode Raj and I talked about this a bit, that we have some friends who have really gone all in in specific industries and specific areas, and I don't know if they also embrace the Win Without Pitching mindset, but I imagine that some of them probably don't have to pitch very much because their expertise and their work and their focus just speaks for itself.
There's a firm here in town called Secret Penguin, and they really own the boutique restaurant space, designing and strategizing from the menus to even the decor in the room, working with great interior designers. I'll tell you what, no one asked us to do restaurants here in town. It almost never happens. They probably just see their stuff. Again, I don't even know if there's really a request for a proposal. It's like, "Yeah, we want to work with you because you're the experts in this thing."
I feel like it was a lot like that when Raj and I first started. Our niche was really churches and Christian nonprofits, and we would just get so much work, and there's so much referral in that world as I'm sure you know, Brian. When you're in that niche and you're doing good work for people, it wasn't like we had to put together a big proposal all the time and convince someone to work with us. They'd be like, "Dude, I saw what you did with so-and-so. I would love to work with you," and it just felt so natural.
Then as we've gotten away from that and broadened what we do, it gets a little harder. We're trying to feel like we always have to reintroduce ourselves and resell ourselves to new people and industries. It can, at its worst, get to a point where we feel like we're having to sell ourselves short or spend so much time just trying to convince people that we're the experts, which doesn't feel like that's the way it should be.
Brian Sooy:
No, and especially for agencies like ours, there's different ways to try to resolve that. One, if you're focusing local, it may make more sense to generalize because you don't have the broad basis, business basis. I'm located just south of Lake Erie, so we literally have half of a metropolitan area because everything north is water.
Ben Lueders:
Could specialize in water-based brands or something.
Brian Sooy:
Well, we did for a while. We were working with a company that focused on the commercialization of Lake Erie and water technologies.
Ben Lueders:
Well, there you go. That's your specialty.
Brian Sooy:
Yeah, but no, the specialization though, it does really help so you don't have to reinvent yourself all the time. Although there's nothing wrong with that on a cyclical basis, and I would say Aspire reinvents itself every 10 years or so, about once a decade. Just as our expertise grows, we take and apply that expertise to different sectors. So for instance, we'll work with Christian community foundations and private K through 12 Christian schools, and we've got models that work for those. We do a lot of work with business authors and, actually, creative sector authors. Then just being able to step into a business and say, "We're going to work alongside you as the owner or the executive leader, and we know what you're facing and we know you've got staffing challenges, you've got revenue challenges, and not that we have the answer for all of those, but let's start working toward your top priorities so we know how to approach it." So that specialization can also be a solution or an approach.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, sure, a methodology or a patented process or something like that.
Brian Sooy:
Right. So similar to ... I'm sorry, I'm speaking too fast there. Similar to StoryBrand, that's an approach that we know works and then can transfer to other areas of the business.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, absolutely. We do work with folks all over the country, but our base is local here in Omaha, and it was fun when we became a StoryBrand certified agency. We suddenly became the StoryBrand certified agency in our region, and we got a lot of work from people who just, "I've been interested in StoryBrand. You've ..." So in a sense, that is a specialization and people started coming for that specific process. So there's a way in which that is a specialization in and of itself.
One thing that's interesting to me about you, Brian, from what I've seen on your website or I should say multiple websites is it seems to me that you have a few different specializations, a few different focuses, but you have built little brands around each one. Is that true? So can you have multiple things you specialize in, but tailor the language to that specialty?
Brian Sooy:
I believe so. So if we were to do these other areas of specialization, a lot of my ... and this ties to the Win Without Pitching Manifesto is Blair came to me through an association with David C. Baker and attending what they called The New Business Summits that they would hold in Nashville, and he said, "I hear you design type for bibles. I'd like to talk to you about designing the Win Without Pitching Manifesto because I want it to be the Bible for the creative industry."
Ben Lueders:
It looks like that. I don't know if you guys can really see this very well, but it's really, really beautiful. You have this beautifully hand-lettered monogram here, the WWP. I'm a Bible nerd and into premium bibles and stuff, and definitely has a religious quality to it in a good way.
Brian Sooy:
Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, religious quality to it. So we wanted it to be a book that people would hold and value just, one, for the design, and depending on the addition you have. The paper does have some ... It's not opaque, so you can see through it. I think the only thing that's missing in it is that sense of old musty smell that you would get when you find this secret treasure book that was hidden.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, it'll get that over time. I can't wait.
Brian Sooy:
Yeah. So as to the specialization, so I have a type design foundry called Altered Ego Fonts, where just my retail fonts are, and then I do some side writing on a website called EntreWorship, which is about the intersection between work and faith for entrepreneurs. They're interests, but Altered Ego's a business. It's a side. It's a sole proprietorship that I run, and it's just because, again, shiny object syndromes like, "I can do this. Why not start another business?"
It's more difficult to maintain. I think it's just a lot more work to maintain multiple brands and product lines because then you're splitting yourself. You're dividing your time. It's better to try to align everything around your core and create a family of brands that are interrelated, and they have some tension between each other, but they relate to each other, and that's what I've tried to do is create. There's logical extensions between them because I even have a lot of nonprofit marketing and brand building expertise.
I don't promote that as much, but I'm getting ready to integrate that back into the Aspire website because I've got a lot of content that I just parked, and it's valuable content, and I want to be able to use it, especially as we're doing some more work with community foundations.
Ben Lueders:
So that takes us to the next one, and this might be the hardest one for me, I don't know why, but, "We will replace presentations with conversations." In this chapter, Blair shows the difference between a practitioner and a performer. How would you unpack that for our audience, Brian?
Brian Sooy:
So if you're doing a pitch, that would be the performer, and the practitioner is coming in and saying, "We've seen this problem before. We've solved it for these three clients in this way, and they allocated this much budget to do it." So you're showing mastery of recognizing at least the overall problem. Whereas the performer would say, "Oh, yeah, we can solve that problem, and then we'll come back with a 40-page pitch deck and do a big reveal," because they get the thrill from the performance, but I think there's an element too, and I've learned this from category pirates is that there's an element of theater in everything we do.
If we have that conversation and build the sense of theater into it, so maybe we open a story loop or a story gap, and we don't resolve it right away or, again, we use behavioral psychology and we prime the conversation by saying, "So we've solved that before. I'll get to the budget and the allocation that we recommend in a moment, but I want to just explain how we work and what the process would look like," because we have to remember, and this is a principle that Blair's mentioned is that the sale is a sample.
So as we're we're just having this conversation with them, we're showing them that we're listening, that we have empathy, that we understand because we have to do that. There's principles that we both see, and we've both probably read about in Proverbs, where it talks about wisdom weaves through everything. When you apply things wisely to life or you apply wisdom to life, things go well, but it also talks about acquiring knowledge and understanding, and you do that by asking questions and then listening.
So then when you are ready, you can say, "Yeah, I think we can solve that for you," and not even I think because that's squishy language, we say, "We can solve that problem for you. It requires this level of investment," so even the words we use, "It requires this level of investment over this amount of time to move you toward your outcomes." So it's just a more reassuring type of conversation versus ... It's consultative, it's not transactional.
Ben Lueders:
Yeah, absolutely. All right. The third proclamation is, "We will diagnose before we prescribe." I put a little fruit next to this because I think this is one that Fruitful does actually follow pretty good. We're not just out there saying, "You need this. You need what we have. You need what we have." We do love to listen, to have a conversation, and to really figure out what the problem that a potential client has before we try to sell them on any one of our packages.
A good example of this for us, and I'd be curious to hear if you have some good relevant ones as well, Brian, but one that comes to mind is a big organization, a really big one that that's local but regional, really, all over the Midwest. They reached out. They wanted to rename, rebrand, and do a new website, and they have multiple locations. It's like this organization has been around for many decades like a family. It's been passed down. The new leader has taken over. Oh, man. I heard that this was coming through the pipeline, and I was so excited, the opportunity to rename this organization and new logo, all that.
Raj met with them, and the first thing he did was he convinced them to not rename and to not do a new logo yet because as he talked to them, it wasn't the right time. They really do need a new website. Their website's not converting. The website's all wrong. It's not connecting to their audience, but as he started hearing what the cost would be for implementing a change like that with the new name, with the new ... He knew how fun it would be for our team to do that work and how much money it would make us initially, but he knew that it wasn't the right time and it wasn't the right solution for that particular person, and he had to do right by the client, and he was not afraid to miss out on some work for the hope of a longer relationship. I think that that was a really good example of this proclamation living that out. So Brian, I'm curious if you have any other stories or any other thoughts on this proclamation.
Brian Sooy:
It's so easy to want to solve the problem in the moment and say, "Oh, yeah, he just did this, this, and this," and then they're like, "Great. Thanks. See ya. We don't need you anymore," but by offering, like Raj did, the advice not to do that yet for that longer term, that shows that client that it's really about them, not about your short-term gain, but about their long-term success. That builds trust. That builds credibility because one thing we talk with our clients about all the time is empathy and authority are important when it comes to establishing reputation, but those two things lead to credibility. If you have credibility and integrity and people see that because it's not you or Raj to company, it's you or Raj to individual or team, they're going to see that, they're going to talk, they're realize that you respect them and the respect's going to come back.
Ben Lueders:
Yeah, no, that's so good. I think one of the things that pops into my head as to why some agencies and some salespeople might not embrace this is because they need to hit their sales goals. They have short-term goals right now or maybe things are tight. I'm not going to lie, it's been a little bit of a slow sales season for us and I think for a lot of other people, and there was part of me that was really thinking short term and thinking of myself and my agency. I'm like, "We could really use the money for that rebrand project right now. I know that we'll probably get it later on," but I think there's this side of us, this fear, maybe a scarcity mindset that makes us want to put ourselves as the hero because we need this right now to hit some number or just to make the sale. What would you say to someone who is feeling that?
Brian Sooy:
Well, the scarcity mindset's important. America, in general, I think any of our economies, regional economies, there's still plenty of opportunity out there. I think it's in both parties' best interest to say, "Hey, to me it's not sounding like this is the right time to do this for you," but you could try to flip that into a different type of engagement, "What if we do a paid audit and lay out a plan to move forward while at the same time help you create specs, again, a paid specification for a website because we really think right now, if that's underperforming, this can drive revenue for you? That's going to help fund this bigger transition." I just think it's a way of reframing the problem.
Ben Lueders:
That's brilliant. Absolutely. Well, that's a really good point, and that's what Raj did was really focus on the thing that was so clear that they needed right now. Then it also turned into ... It opened up a whole new ... As you learn what their real needs were ... This new owner was coming into power and he really needed the buy-in from his team, that he needed alignment on his team about what their mission is going forward, and it really turned into this thing where he's actually really interested in engaging with us to do a StoryBrand workshop with their whole team to just get them aligned in the right direction.
So exactly that. When you actually listen and you have conversations with people, maybe the things, the assumptions, the packages, the things you thought you wanted to sell them initially or even the things they thought they wanted from you, they could be the wrong things, but there might be other things and better things that are good for them and for you because as long as you're selling something, that's a good thing for you.
Brian Sooy:
Sure, sure.
Ben Lueders:
"We will rethink what it means to sell," is the fourth proclamation. What does Blair mean by that or what does that mean to you, Brian?
Brian Sooy:
Again, he's leaning into that our ... I'm just reading here what he writes on the next page, "We'll acknowledge our fear and misunderstanding of selling has contributed to our preference for the pitch. We will embrace sales as a basic business function that cannot be avoided, and so we will learn to do it properly as respectful facilitators." So this is really about mindset shift. We're not selling ... The phrase a lot of people use, "Oh, I do business development." How do you do that?
Ben Lueders:
I've been saying that lately.
Brian Sooy:
Well, and we have to think about it. Marketing and business development go together because Seth Godin, "Everybody's a marketer." We are building relationships, and all of this has to flow out of the relationship we build so that people trust us. When they give us money to do something for them, it's to solve the problem, it's to move toward an outcome, but it's validation that they trust us. It's proof of the exchange. Money's just proof that trust has been exchanged. So we need to move this toward, "I'm here to help you. I'm not here to sell to you. I'm here to help you. How can I help?" and leave it at that. We're all prone to talk, "How can I help?" Just silence. That's it, "How can I help?" and then just let them sit there like, "What do you mean?" It's like, "I'm just here to help. What are your biggest problems right now? What are your top priorities?" Maybe you have one question, "If you could do one thing right now that would double your revenue in 12 months, what would it be?"
Ben Lueders:
I like a question like that because it really engages the imagination of the person you're talking to. It forces them to ... which I imagine when you say something like that, they have things that just start popping to mind. They have stuff that's already been percolating up there, but you're finding a way to just tap into that, into some of their fears, insecurities or their dreams of what success looks like. We all have something there, and I really like that a lot.
Brian Sooy:
Sure, and there's a process we use as part of our brand optimization process where we ask them to create a legacy document. Some people may say write your own obituary. Some people find that a bit more. So we say, "Well, let's talk about your-"
Ben Lueders:
I think Donald Miller has a book about that.
Brian Sooy:
Yeah. "Let's talk about your legacy, and it could be as simple as it's 25 years from now and you've just decided to retire or close the business or it has to close. What are you leaving behind?" I've started to say, "It's a hundred years from now. You've been long gone, and it's the third generation away from you. What does that look like?" or, "It's 200 years from now. What does that look like for your business?" When they do that, you're able to pull out some nuggets and say, "Now, in order for this to happen, where do we need to start now?" Their whole perspective of you changes. It's like, "You're making me think really long term. Here I'm thinking I just need to get some marketing spun up."
This is about transformation because we talk about transformation a lot. This really helps people think about not only what they're leaving well after they're gone, but what's the legacy they're building now. It's a great way to start that mindset shift and show them that you're there to facilitate and not sell.
Ben Lueders:
I love that. I feel like we're going to have to definitely steal that one because I think it's so common right now, especially people just in survival mode, they're not thinking about even the next three years, they're thinking about, "How am I going to stay in business this year?" a lot of times. I love how that just really zooms them way out, think a lot bigger. Really, I imagine when you phrase it that way, they suddenly are looking at you as more of a partner, not just someone who's going to get me this one thing that's going to help me achieve this one goal right in front of me this quarter or something like that, but more like, "Oh, wow, is this the agency, is this the person, the team that's going to help me build a legacy?" That's something that's deep inside of us, I think, as humans, but maybe it's not the thing that we're ... No one's picking up the phone and like, "Hey, can you help me build my legacy?" but it's all in here. It's in here. We care. I care.
When you're saying that I'm like, "Yeah, that's the stuff that keeps me up over the weekend, and that's the stuff when I'm looking into my kids' eyes that I'm thinking about." On Monday, I'm thinking about, "Okay. How are we going to hit these goals? How are we going to be able to pay the bills? How are we going to survive this one more year?" Really, at the end of the day, it's a lot bigger than that, of course.
Brian Sooy:
Yeah, and think about it in terms of the value pyramid that we often refer to, the Bain Value Pyramid. There's a functional problem that people have, and it's creating that sense inside them, whether it's emotional or a longing, and then there's a transformation that needs to happen. The more in your business development or facilitation that you can move up that pyramid, the more they're going to see that you are there to help and that you're tapping into something that's a deep longing and need for them, whether it's just simply to protect their job or to really help their company grow and get to the next level from where they want to be or simply even just from a campaign perspective. We have one campaign, we've got one goal, but let's just think more than just short term for this.
Ben Lueders:
All right. Proclamation number five, "We will do with words what we used to do with paper." I was reading this little chapter, and this one might be the one that really stood out to me the most because it's saying, "Don't spend all this time making these lofty, written proposals and these presentation decks trying to explain all the things you're going to do and try to impress people with language before you've made the sale, but instead, do that with actual just conversation and resting on your expertise."
This was the one, I think, when I thought of you, Brian, I was like, "Does that really work?" because we do this. We actually have a whole bunch of proposals we need to get working on this week, we think, unless you convince me otherwise. Even I think this might be the one, and it'd be good for you to maybe speak to this, Donald Miller and Business Made Simple, they have a whole section to what they do called Proposals Made Simple. We try to follow that model where we do these handwritten or handwritten, these written proposals that follow the StoryBrand framework a bit.
So they are better than I think a lot of proposals, but we're still spending a lot of time filling out these templates for people as a way to get their business. So I don't know. Do you have any initial thoughts to that one? Does this negate that Proposals Made Simple mindset or do you guys embrace some proposal making over at Aspire?
Brian Sooy:
We can't avoid doing a proposal sometimes. Again, this is an ideal. It's never 100% true. Well, I can't say that. I'm sure there are businesses out there that don't. So occasionally when we do a proposal, we call it an agreement. So again, we shift the language to what we want to use.
Ben Lueders:
It's an important shift though.
Brian Sooy:
We say it's an agreement, and it's not to tell you what its cost. It's about what your investment needs to be or what your budget allocation should be in order to achieve this outcome. We don't talk about deliverables, we talk about outcomes. So I've been really intentional on using that language for a number of years, and it really does pay off. I use a tool called NUSII, N-U-S-I-I. I think it's dot com. So I have prebuilt sections, and then I know what my base fees are and everything. So I can drag in a, "Here's the StoryBrand framework." I can drag in, "Here's our brand strategy model," and then I preface that with ... They usually send me an email or I've captured thoughts from what their objectives are using Fathom in a Zoom call. So I just grabbed that content and I said, "This is what you told me, priority, and here's how we'll move toward those outcomes." So it'll maybe take me a 30 minutes to just pull all that together. Although I do hesitate for a half hour before I hit send on it.
Ben Lueders:
You always got to lose a half hour there.
Brian Sooy:
So this week, I had a conversation with somebody and he asked ... We talked. I primed him a little bit and I said, "We have a minimum level of engagement. If we're going to work together, it's this much per month or up to this much per month, depending on the level of engagement we have." Then he asked, "Well, what does that look like? What can we do on a shorter term basis?" So I gave him a high number for something that could be delivered in two weeks. So he went back to my original conversation and he said, "Well," he knows his budget and what he's got, he said, "can we do a 12-month commitment at this much per month?" I'm like, "Yeah. We can work alongside you. We work in quarterly sprints." He's got quarterly priorities. I said, "We'll work toward each of those quarterly priorities." He said, "Great. Put together what I need to review and send it to me."
So I used my tool, sent it to him, and I had the response back before I left the office that day or before the end of the day. I came in the next morning and it's just, "You're accepted. The proposal's been accepted," and I always sit back and go like, "Wow, it worked."
Ben Lueders:
"It worked."
Brian Sooy:
So conversation to proposal, it is effective. It takes practice and it takes time, it takes confidence, but I'm just really thankful that I'm confident in doing that now. Is it successful 100% of the time? No, but I don't have to spend a ton of time reinventing the wheel every time. Again, studying more with Blair and his team, understanding how to frame choices for people, how to anchor differently, how to even anchoring that you can get into with Blair on one of his workshops. There's a lot of value in just attending a Win Without Pitching workshop and reading the book because you get more out of the live sessions than you can get in the book.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, I'm sure. All right. Well, let's get into the last one for today. We're getting into the sixth proclamation in the Win Without Pitching Manifesto. We're going to tackle the next six in the next podcast, but the sixth proclamation is, "We will be selective." So I think that's talking about being selective about who we work with. Isn't that right, Brian?
Brian Sooy:
That's correct. Blair talks about perfect fits, and this is different than ... So think about, we talk often about who's your ideal customer to our clients, but I think we should talk about who's the perfect fit, who's going to help you generate the revenue you want, and whom are you going to be able to be most effective in helping, are they going to be able to get along with them in their team, do they want your help, do they value your expertise. So there's this reciprocity that goes on in the relationship that we need to look for when we're doing our facilitating, when we're doing our relationship building.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, yeah, and I think that that's one thing that we've gotten better at is ... and I'd encourage anyone listening to take some time and maybe get out a pen and paper and think about who are your best clients you have right now and what makes them such great clients and just a joy to work with. Who are those folks that you look forward to meeting with them, you look forward to solving their problems? I think one thing you'll find and one thing that we've found, it ties into something that Brian and I were talking offline about at the beginning of today's recording, it's trust. A lot of it comes down to trust, where there's that feeling that you know that they know that you have their best interest in mind and that you are an expert at what you do, and there's none of that micromanaging that comes in.
As a designer, and I'm sure, Brian, you've had this where people that they think they're more creative than you, they think that they're a bigger expert than you are, but they just maybe don't have the Photoshop skills or whatever it is. We've had a handful of these over the years, where it turns into it feels like, basically, they've got their hand on your mouse kind of a thing and telling you what to do. Those are the ones that we hate.
So I think that really taking that time to just analyze what makes a great client, what makes a great experience, and then looking for that in the people that are coming to you and vice versa, what makes a terrible client experience and really trying to learn from those mistakes because you'll start developing this spidey sense of, "Ooh, I remember someone else that was giving me these vibes, had these same questions, had these same concerns early on, wanted these same proofs that we know what we're doing," and maybe you can learn that, "Hey, we don't have to work for everybody. We can be a little bit picky."
Brian Sooy:
It's okay to say no because it may just not be, like you said, the right fit. The relationship may have some tension in it. You see those red flags and you just want to avoid those because we want to enjoy what we're doing too, and we have those other things hanging over us, it just hinders us from doing our best work.
Ben Lueders:
Do you ever say no, Brian?
Brian Sooy:
I do say no from time to time, yes.
Ben Lueders:
From time to time.
Brian Sooy:
I think I just avoid responding or I just make it ... I just don't direct ... I do say no. I just say, "I just don't feel right about this. It's just not the right fit." A lot of times because there's ambiguity in what they're looking for and I can't define what they want and they don't have a defined budget or it's a startup, that's just not the right fit for us.
Ben Lueders:
This has been the end of the first half of our little walkthrough the Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns. We've been talking to Brian Sooy, the designer of this book, and the leader of Aspire, an agency that follows the Win Without Pitching Manifesto proclamations. So next time, we're going to dig into the next six of the proclamations together. Thanks for being on the podcast today, Brian.
Brian Sooy:
Yeah, Ben, thanks. It's been a great conversation and I appreciate all your insights into it. Next time we get together, you'll have to tell me if you're more convinced.
Ben Lueders:
Will do. Thanks for joining us today on Growing A Fruitful Brand. If you found today's show helpful, don't forget to subscribe and consider sharing it with someone who might also enjoy it. If you'd like to work with Fruitful on a branding website or messaging project of your own, you can always reach out on our website, fruitful.design. So until next time, don't forget to grow something good.
