How to Thrive Through Change
Change is the only constant in business.
If you’ve felt the high turnover, budget constraints, and relentless fatigue of the past three years- you’ll want to listen to this week’s episode of Growing a Fruitful Brand.
On this week’s episode, Raj is joined by Kate Johnson, Founder and President of Grace Camp® Consulting, an organization that is transforming businesses and communities through dynamic training and consulting.
In the episode, Johnson unpacks the implications of external change, and internal change, and how our expectations and preconceived opinions dictate how we respond to and lead through change.
Johnson is no stranger to how the forces of change can reshape an organization for better or worse. Johnson served as VP of Beauty & Grooming Products at Procter & Gamble (P&G) during its acquisition of Gillette in 2005, overseeing the integration of the two brands and all the intricacies of merging two culturally different teams.
Johnson later experienced leading through change from the other side as Director of US Consumer Goods at Heinz during its acquisition by Berkshire Hathaway and 3G Capital.
Check out the episode, out now, where you get your podcasts or watch it on YouTube!
Find out more about Kate Johnson and Grace Camp® Consulting!
Ep. 24:
How to Thrive Through Change
Automated Transcript
Raj Lulla:
If the constant change over the past three years has worn you down as a business leader, you're not alone, and you are going to feel some relief as you listen today. Our guest on this episode, Kate Johnson, served as VP of Beauty and Grooming products at Procter & Gamble, and managing director of US Consumer Goods at Heinz. When Procter & Gamble purchased Gillette, the razor maker, Kate oversaw the successful integration of the two companies. Shortly after she joined Heinz, it was purchased and Kate helped manage the change from the other side of the table.
Now she uses the same framework she learned at Procter & Gamble, at Grace Camp Consulting, her company, to help organizations not only endure change, but instead use change as an opportunity to grow. Welcome to Growing a Fruitful Brand, where we discuss how to create and grow a brand that makes the world a better place for you, your customers, and your employees.
I'm Raj Lulla, principal brand strategist at Fruitful Design and Strategy. In this episode, I am so fortunate to interview Kate Johnson, whom I deeply admire both as a professional and a person about how to lead through change. Kate, thanks for being on the Growing a Fruitful Brand Podcast.
Kate Johnson:
Oh, thanks for having me.
Raj Lulla:
I am so excited to have you here. I've learned so much from you in the last several years, and I've enjoyed our work together. When we started, the world looked a lot different from how it does now. We were meeting in person at the very beginning and all of that, and so the world's pretty different now from when we started just a few years ago. And I know that your expertise, one of the things that you do for a living is help people lead through change. So today that's what we're going to get into. Before we do that though, can you just share some of the change that you personally have led through and why this became a passion of yours?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, thank you. I've thoroughly enjoyed working with you as well-
Raj Lulla:
Thank you.
Kate Johnson:
... and your team. Yeah, so thanks for that. So the one I would like to share about is Gillette. So I was working with the Procter & Gamble, and P&G bought Gillette, so P&G, Procter & Gamble... A lot of acronyms. So I'll apologize if I say any more, although I've been trying not to. And it was the largest consumer package goods acquisition at that time, and Gillette at the time was in Boston, and we had to integrate their North America operations out of Boston into Cincinnati. So culturally, just the difference between East coast and the Midwest was a huge change. But then, as I dug into it a little bit more, the cultures of the company were very different too. And so I was very concerned about making sure that we made the acquisition as successful as possible, at least the piece that I was in charge of, which was the blades and razors business.
So what I did is we put together the whole business strategy for the organization of how we were going to do the nuts and bolts of the change, we also had a whole organizational strategy of what we were going to do. And so that's when I got first introduced to this training that I hired... I hired in as a leader in managing corporate change, leading through change. And so that was part of a whole strat plan, and it ended up working better than I had expected.
So from a results standpoint, the company goal was to hold 80% retention worldwide. And the Boston-based business, which is where their global headquarters of Gillette was, was running about 60% retention. So they were losing a lot of people.
Raj Lulla:
Wow, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Since we were bringing these people in who had so much technical expertise, I wanted to make sure that we did the right thing for the business, but also them. I didn't want to lose the technical expertise, and I wanted them to make a decision if they wanted to stay or not. And so we actually, through all the works of the team, and to include this change leadership, held a hundred percent retention.
Raj Lulla:
That's incredible.
Kate Johnson:
It really was. It was exciting. It was the best out of all functions, out of all regions of the world. So that's when I became a believer. That was the change point for me, when I decided this could be something I do in my second half after I left corporate. So that is one example of this workshop now that I lead now with corporations all over the world now.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Thank you COVID. Now that we can go virtual. So that is probably the one I think about a real turning point or tipping point, if you will. I used to muddle through change, like a lot of people, and then I was like, "Whoa," I could see how you can actually accelerate what you want to do during change.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. It's interesting, you saying thank you COVID. I have a little reaction to it emotionally.
Kate Johnson:
I know. I know.
Raj Lulla:
But you're right though. I mean, in our business in marketing and branding, people used to really, really care about, "Can I go down the street and meet in your office and drop by and show you the changes on the logos?" And all that kind of stuff. And it was overnight. As soon as the world went virtual, we were getting leads from all over the country all of a sudden. And we had done business across the country, but it was largely based in Omaha, and then a little bit here and there around the country. After March of 2020, people didn't care where we were based because they couldn't go anywhere anyway. And so it was a big opportunity. And so there is a little bit of thank you COVID in there, but it still feels a little weird for us to-
Kate Johnson:
I know, I know, to say that because it was so horrible on so many fronts, but it did force us to rethink everything, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Everything.
Raj Lulla:
So that's such a great picture though of what change is like. Even just the word makes us cringe a little bit. It's very similar to the word cringe. And we just have this negative reaction to the concept of change in general. And so to thank a pandemic or to thank the loss of a loved one, or to thank a move or something that we just see those things as inherently negative, but they often are the turning points towards the best things in our life, which is really incredible.
Because that's true, can you talk about, specifically in the Gillette environment, and I know you've worked at Kraft Heinz as well, and in some of those big environments when those changes, mergers, acquisitions, that are all just headlines to the rest of us, what makes those so difficult internally? How do people react? What is it that... Like I said, for the rest of us it's just a headline, some lawyers pushing some papers around, but for the people, how do they experience that? Why does that raise up such big feelings?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. What comes to mind when you ask that question is when I was... It was actually Valentine's Day. I was five weeks into my new job at Heinz, and they had flown in all of the leaders around the world for the meeting with the CEO. And I was just excited, like, "All right, I get to meet veeps, I get to meet the CEO. And that's when they announced that Heinz was actually getting bought by Berkshire Hathaway and 3G Capital. And it was amazing to watch the reaction, the emotional reaction in the room of people. I think a lot of it had to do, in that instance, because they had been a lot of longtime employees, and they knew something was going to happen, and they had probably heard in the news or read about at least 3G Capital and what they had a history of doing with companies once they acquired them. And so the panic or energy or concern for that was a lot more, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
I can't say that was the case with the Gillette folks that I worked with, right?
Raj Lulla:
Mm-hmm.
Kate Johnson:
Now, I was on the P&G side, so it wasn't as difficult, but that change, I didn't see as much emotion with that. But Gillette had been bought and sold many times, so they were probably a little more used to it as well. Heinz had not.
Raj Lulla:
Don't unpack.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think it depends on, first of all, what they're used to and also how well they adapt to change, how well they do change. And most people don't like change Raj, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Most people don't, and that's okay. That's normal.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. My sister shared with me, as you know, who you've worked with-
Kate Johnson:
Yes, yes.
Raj Lulla:
She shared with me there's this Instagram account called The Daily Stoic, and I think it's Seneca who said that we often suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality.
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
That kind of sounds like that room at Heinz where, it's just imagining what's coming is what makes us suffer. The change hasn't even come yet.
Kate Johnson:
No.
Raj Lulla:
We're just thinking about-
Kate Johnson:
Exactly, yeah.
Raj Lulla:
What could happen, and we're miserable about it already.
Kate Johnson:
Yes, yes. We're worrying. We're worrying about the future. Right.
Raj Lulla:
Well, I know that you have helped so many leaders manage change, which like I said, right now could not be more important. Thankfully, we are on the back half of the pandemic here, but the economy is confusing headlines every day. A lot of us have had to make staffing changes or shift our marketing or product sales, all those things to just try to survive the last few years. Definitely some change fatigue going on. And so I'd love if you'd share from your trainings and from your experience, what are some things that can help us navigate change, people who are leading change?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. Well, first and foremost, as I just said, that most people don't like change, okay?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
So if that's where you're at, that's okay, because most people don't. And I would just say acknowledge it. Don't pretend. If you're really worried about it, acknowledge it. One of the best things leaders can do is speak the truth and tell people, "Yeah, I'm nervous about this, and here's why." Right? Because that's going to allow their folks to maybe be more open. And that actually fits into the whole model that we teach that we can talk about later if we want to. But that's a big thing, is first and foremost, understanding that most people don't like change.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. And that is helpful to just almost commiserate a little.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, state, the obvious, right? Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
But I mean, with things like mental health and even physical health, all those things, sometimes we suffer by ourselves, and we never poke our head up and go, "Hey, is anybody else going through this?" And then when everybody else raises your hand, you go, "Just knowing that." You know?
Kate Johnson:
Yes, I'm not alone.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. It doesn't make it hurt less.
Kate Johnson:
No.
Raj Lulla:
But it takes away the hurt that's on top of the hurt, of feeling alienated, feeling by yourself.
Kate Johnson:
Yes, for sure.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. So there is a big relief in just being able to admit it. I don't like this change that's being sometimes forced on me, sometimes coming from within.
Kate Johnson:
Yes, yes.
Raj Lulla:
Speaking of that, you've told me that there are three different types of change, and so can you parse those out for us?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, yeah, sure. Pretty straightforward. The first one is external changes, kind of what we were just talking about. Company gets bought, company gets sold, right? I missed my flight because the flight was delayed or traffic, there's a change, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
There's a change. And so it's externally, we didn't cause it, but it's still a change, and we're going to react to it.
Raj Lulla:
It's happening to us.
Kate Johnson:
To us, totally. Then there's the internal changes. We're driving the change, right? I'm going to work out. I'm going to be a better spouse. I'm going to go on a vacation. This is change that... I'm going to change my job. This is all internal change. Those two are pretty straightforward. The one that most of us aren't as aware of is the one that is change versus expectations, especially if there are expectations of ours that are unarticulated, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Right. So for example, if I came in here and punched you in the face, you wouldn't have been expecting that. You may hit me back. But the point is you're like, "Wait a second. That was still a change. I didn't see it coming," right?
Raj Lulla:
Right.
Kate Johnson:
And so sometimes we don't even understand what our expectations are, and then when people break them, it feels like a betrayal and that causes all this emotional reaction also to a change.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. I'd love to dive into two types of the change, because external seems to make a lot of sense. A pandemic happens, we can't go to the office, that sort of thing. We've lived a lot of external change. I think one of the ones that has surprised a lot of us is that internal change, where you wake up one day and you don't love your job anymore, and you don't really know why. Can you talk about that? Where does that stuff come from? Is it just age? Is it chemical imbalance, or is that stuff that has maybe been happening in the background for a long time that we just weren't paying attention to?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Why does that change surprise us so much? Or why is that kind of change so difficult?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. I think it's really difficult, especially for planners, people who have their whole career planned out, and then all of a sudden they're like, "Wait a second, this isn't what I expected." And that actually happened with me. I can speak specifically from my example from when I decided to leave Procter & Gamble at 27 years into the company. I thought I was going to stay there till retirement, most people did. And then as I continued to work on myself, develop myself, get some great training, worked on my life's purpose, that was a big one for me. Then I realized that it was nothing against Procter & Gamble. And I got higher in the company too. Sometimes you move up and then you're like, "Okay, this isn't what I thought it was going to be." But for me, it was my personal development that I gratefully had the opportunity to do that led my heart change.
And I still didn't even know it, right, until I got a phone call from a recruiter, and then all of a sudden I said, "Yeah, I'd be willing to do this." And I couldn't believe it, because recruiters don't call people 27 years, usually, into the same company, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
So I think a lot of the internal ones is us continuing to develop and to grow, or being challenged by other people too. Sometimes we get into companies too, or in places that we can't be our true self, our authentic self, or we believe we can't. And I think that also could play a factor, too, Raj. We get so wrapped up in the next job because everybody else wants the next job or the promotion. Then all of a sudden we find ourself, "Wait a second, is this what I want? Or is this what you want?" Right?
Raj Lulla:
Mm-hmm, yeah. That's really interesting. One of the first things... First of all, I've been incredibly impressed with you since the day we met.
Kate Johnson:
Oh, thank you.
Raj Lulla:
You have done such amazing things, and yet you're so down to earth in the room and I think that's why you're such a great coach for people.
Kate Johnson:
Thank you.
Raj Lulla:
The first time we met, you talked about what you were doing in the next stage of your career, and you used a phrase that was something in the neighborhood of, "I'm still in the prime of my earning potential." And I was probably just at the very beginning of my earning potential at that time, because everything for me was, "I've got kids in diapers and I just have to make this work." And so, those things that you're talking about of being my authentic self at work was not even a consideration at that point. It was, "I really have to feed these tiny mouths, and then we will figure everything else out." And then for me, as I've grown, thankfully, I've been able to do it within Fruitful, but my job has shifted several times. My job last year, a year and a half ago, was broken up into four separate roles.
Kate Johnson:
You were clearly doing too much then, Raj.
Raj Lulla:
Very... Yeah, for sure, for sure. But part of that was because I had just... I'd bought that narrative that I need to do all of these things because that's required of me. And then when it began to hurt too much, then I got to the point where, okay, I have to do something about this.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, yeah.
Raj Lulla:
So yeah, sometimes that internal change sneaks up on us a little bit because the external pressures can be such that it's just like, "I don't know. This is what you need me to do so I can work here and feed my kids and whatever? Okay, that's fine." And then we don't check in with ourselves to figure out is this really working though?
Kate Johnson:
Right. Life just keeps going and then we keep piling stuff on top of that. You know?
Raj Lulla:
Yes. Yep.
Kate Johnson:
I was listening to one of your podcasts, and one of your guests talked about their word for the year... Or was that you?
Raj Lulla:
Oh, yeah, no. Yeah. No.
Kate Johnson:
Anyway.
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Maybe it was Ben. I don't know. And it's funny, I've never had a word for the year, but my word for this year is pace.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Right? No pace, no peace.
Oh, that's great.
Kate Johnson:
Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
No peace, no power, right? And when you're... love what you do, like you do, and you just want to keep doing it.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
There comes that point where you stop listening to... We don't have time to listen to the still small voice. Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And that's what got you here.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yep.
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. I just want to acknowledge you, Raj, for having the courage to split your job.
Raj Lulla:
Well, thank you.
Kate Johnson:
Because that's another big thing about change is that any change requires courage. It really does.
Raj Lulla:
I feel like I barely deserve credit for it because I definitely got to the point of crisis with it where I just knew that I could not continue to go at the pace.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
I love that. No pace, no peace. No peace, no power.
Kate Johnson:
Right.
Raj Lulla:
Because for me, I thought it was the opposite. It was that power was derived from going at a pace that no one else could go.
Kate Johnson:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a lie.
Raj Lulla:
Very much so.
Kate Johnson:
But it's a lie that a lot of us have bought into over years.
Raj Lulla:
Oh, a hundred percent.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, the hustle culture, the grind culture, all of that. Yeah, it has made us believe that the trick to success is turning off the voice, paying no attention to pain, to weakness, any of those things. And whereas it's actually the opposite. You're going to burn yourself out-
Kate Johnson:
Correct.
Raj Lulla:
... if you continue to not pay attention to those things.
Kate Johnson:
You know I'm in the process of writing a book-
Raj Lulla:
yep.
Kate Johnson:
... for like four years now. Put that aside at the beginning of the pandemic, but one of my chapters is If My Knees Could Talk. And as a former basketball player, and have had five or six knee surgeries, you're trained, at least our college coach, trained us just to push through, to push through, not to listen to our bodies, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And one of my favorite books that I'm into right now is The Body Keeps Score. Have you heard of that book?
Raj Lulla:
Yes. Oh, yes.
Kate Johnson:
Yes. I haven't completed yet because I'm a very slow reader. But I love that whole point is that even though we're pushing through, either physically as an athlete or mentally, and still physically as a corporate athlete, that we're doing damage to our body, whether we realize it or not.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. I mean, that's such a great point. My favorite show of all time is the West Wing. In the West Wing, they use this example of an old law school trick, I don't know if it really is, of tying yourself to your chair that if you can't... If there's something unpalatable that you need to do, they literally would take off their belt and strap themselves to the chair until they figured out the problem.
Kate Johnson:
Wow.
Raj Lulla:
I never physically did that, but there were so many times where we'd get to five o'clock and I'd go, "I got to go home. I got kids at home," whatever. And then I'd see that invoice on my desk and go, "Oh, no, I have to send that out." But thinking that if I don't tie myself to my chair in this moment, then that's giving into this thing and that'll be two things tomorrow, and it'll be five things the day after. And whereas it... That should have been a sign of, "Hey, there's too much work. You need to hire somebody sooner, increase your capacity." I had stopped listening. I'd become so out of touch with what really I should have been listening to at that time.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, but then you came back in touch. So there you go.
Raj Lulla:
It takes a lot of work.
Kate Johnson:
It does. It does. It does. But you did it so there, right? And then probably... What is that saying? Sometimes you win and sometimes you learn, right?
Raj Lulla:
Oh, I love that.
Kate Johnson:
So yeah, you'll do better next time and you'll coach better, even, right?
Raj Lulla:
I mean, that is one thing that's been really great about the experience is that now I know what to look out for in our employees, and I know what I will not build for them because it wasn't good for me.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. I love that.
Raj Lulla:
The other type of change you talked about that is so good is unmet expectations, even ones we didn't know that we had. Here at Fruitful, we talk about how people will endure almost anything if it's what they expect. What are some expectations that we don't realize that we have?
Kate Johnson:
Well, this may sound like we're going into couples therapy, but I see that... Well, with Rick and I, we're expecting that he can read my mind. And at a very simplistic level, we... Or we expect people to, well, respond an email 24 hours, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
I work with a non-profit locally as you know. Sometimes I'll send out an email and I'll get nothing back, right?
Raj Lulla:
And in corporate, that's not the case. In fact, it's over [inaudible 00:22:29]. They send it to you back immediately and copy 20 people. But for me, I realized that that was an... That was me not articulating to the group, "Hey, can you please just say I got the email?" I mean, that's a small example, but it's these expectations we have in our mind, how my spouse should treat me, how people should respond, that we get them in our mind, and then we've never articulated them. So then when people break it, it's not only difficult because we haven't even articulated it clearly, but then, as I said, sometimes it can feel like a betrayal too. And then that even drives the emotional reaction faster, right?
Yep. I have a review and work time scheduled off in my calendar every day, every afternoon, to catch up on all the Slack messages and emails that come into my box while I'm in meetings or brand strategy sessions. And so one thing I'll do is I'll check those messages between those meetings and I'll see it and go, "Oh, I need to deal with that. So I'll leave it... I'll mark it as unread and come back to it later. But my team doesn't know that I read that message. And so I've learned... There was a team member here who taught us to just put an emoji at the bottom of that message. So I use the eyeglasses now as just like, "My eyeballs have seen this."
Kate Johnson:
Got it.
Raj Lulla:
"I have not dealt with it yet."
Kate Johnson:
That's all you need.
Raj Lulla:
"But I have acknowledged that this exists, and so now it's in my-"
Kate Johnson:
That's so smart.
Raj Lulla:
Now it's in my court.
Kate Johnson:
So smart. It's such a simple thing for leaders to do, but you are so... You're pushing to the next thing, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And the problem is that that person, now, their voice in their head is running as to, "Oh, my gosh, did Raj not like it?
Raj Lulla:
Yes.
Kate Johnson:
Not, "Did he not see it? Did he not like it?"
Raj Lulla:
Or does he not care?
Kate Johnson:
Or does he not care? Is this going to impact my next review? The rabbit hole goes, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yes.
Kate Johnson:
And so that's a very easy thing that leaders can do, is just quickly acknowledge. You'll save yourself so much time. Think about that when you had young kids at home, right?
Raj Lulla:
Oh, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
You walk home and at the end of the day, you're just beat. You've worked hard and you just want to maybe sit down and not have somebody want something from you, want a piece of you, right?
Raj Lulla:
A hundred percent.
Kate Johnson:
And where do the kids meet you?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, at the door.
Kate Johnson:
At the door. And what do they want? They want a piece of you, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yep.
Kate Johnson:
And how many times do you say... Not you, but people say, "Okay, just not now, honey, Daddy needs a little time," or, "Mommy needs a little time."? The problem is that they are going to still come at you either directly or maybe start a fight.
Raj Lulla:
Yep.
Kate Johnson:
Yes?
Raj Lulla:
Yep.
Kate Johnson:
Because they're going to get your attention.
Raj Lulla:
Oh, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
So it's pay me now or pay me later. But just that little bit of... Kids don't need much, right?
Raj Lulla:
Right.
Kate Johnson:
"Yes, show me," and they're done in three minutes and move on. This is not that I'm saying that your employees are kids, but that's exactly...
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, they're people. They're just like kids.
Kate Johnson:
Yes. Yes.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, my kids had... One of my daughters was kind of acting out at one point, and I was like, "What do you need?" And thankfully, she's old enough now that she can kind of articulate it, and she goes, "I just want to play."
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
I was like, "Oh, seriously? You're fighting with me because you want to have fun?"
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
So we just started having more fun, and that thing has gone down, and it was amazing how easy it was. The big thing that we learned... We took a parenting class during the pandemic, and the big word that we learned was validation. I'm just, "I don't even necessarily agree that you should be angry about this, but I see that you are angry about this."
Kate Johnson:
It's just acknowledging their emotion. And that's a great thing that leaders can do in times of change it's just acknowledge the other people's emotion versus trying to convince them that they shouldn't feel that way.
Raj Lulla:
Oh, goodness, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Right?
Raj Lulla:
Which doesn't work.
Kate Johnson:
No.
Raj Lulla:
And it doesn't work in large part because it's already happened.
Kate Johnson:
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Don't tell me that it's not raining. I'm already all wet.
Kate Johnson:
Right, exactly, exactly. There's no going back. Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
So we know a lot of the unfun, unfriendly pieces of change, but you've talked about how change brings opportunity.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
How is that? What's good about change?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, my favorite part of the change model that we teach in the workshop is when we talk about inventing possibilities. That's the fun part about change. Because what I know to be true is that when the window of change is open, that's when more change can get through or change begets change.
Raj Lulla:
So that sounds scary though, right? Because it's like, wait, wait, wait, we're already dealing with change, and you're saying there's more change on the other side of this change?
Kate Johnson:
Change that I want though, right?
Raj Lulla:
Okay, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
So that's what I'm saying is if we are clear on... And so the conversation that we were talking about before is when you made the change to move from your old office to here, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
You knew at some point, whether you had stated it or not, this was a possibility you would like to do is to move to the old market, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And so then something happened, a change happened. In this case, it was probably a good change because your business was growing, but still it was the window of change. And so now you're like, "This change has happened. The window of change is open, let's go. It's time to go." So that's when the window of change is open.
So for example, practically for me with a pandemic, everything, I was just starting my business. Every workshop I was doing was in person. I'm just in year three of it, when the pandemic hit, and then we had to figure out how to do it virtually, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
I mean, I had no other choice, as did many other people, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
But four years later, three years later, now. I guess three years later, 2023. Last year, I had the best year I've ever had, because I can do more workshops now, because some of them I can do virtually, and some of them I still do in person. I've had the amazing opportunity to do this change workshop with people all over the world now because I can do it virtually. I think we talked about this in the fall. It was quite humbling having people from Russia and the Ukraine in the same-
Raj Lulla:
Wow.
Kate Johnson:
... workshop in Eastern Europe and Western Europe. That was humbling, because I thought I knew change based on... I didn't set out in life to become an expert in change, but with the experiences, gratefully, and some training, I really thought I knew change. And then I'm talking to people who are in the middle of a war. It's very humbling. Very humbling. But that would never have happened, if I didn't have to go figure out how to do this virtually. And that would've never happened if this pandemic hadn't happened, of the change. I hated, as we all did, the pandemic change, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
But it did open the window for change, and it allowed to create.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
And honestly, I don't know that I'd really thought about it much before today, but part of the reason this podcast exists was because we were cut off from having relationships with our customers, and we were having these conversations locked away in our little Zoom rooms, or standing six feet away from each other in our office space. And we felt so isolated from our customers and felt like they're struggling to navigate this change and we have some of the answers because of our skills in marketing and technology, those things, and we just wish we could share with them. And so it forced us to do something that would be helpful.
Kate Johnson:
Mm-hmm. Had you thought about doing a podcast before?
Raj Lulla:
We had, but maybe not as seriously. And I think that actually is a great point, because if you had started your business in... Because you said you were three years in and you felt like you were just getting started. At the same time, you saw more change in 15 days at Heinz than a lot of people experience in 20 years.
Kate Johnson:
Yes, that's true. That's true.
Raj Lulla:
And so you know that you are capable of doing a huge lift of work, and you know that even your time in basketball, and it's like there are just these moments where you can produce way more than you think you can. And so I think even if the pandemic had happened in year one of your business, or even if you just set the intention in year one, "By the end of this year, I'm going to be virtual," you were capable of it the whole time.
Kate Johnson:
Yes. I just didn't know it.
Raj Lulla:
Exactly. But change that was forced upon you brought change in behavior that ended up being really good for you. And that's what you're talking about. It's just that the good change comes along with other change.
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
Sometimes it's neutral, sometimes it's unpleasant, but it gives you the opportunity to go, "Okay, well, we can rethink this a little bit."
Kate Johnson:
Yes, absolutely. I think I learned at the earliest, in my P&G days when I first had to run a budget, and it was a fiscal year that ended on June 30th, and I knew each year I was going to get a budget cut. So for the first few years, I just made sure I had enough squirreled away, or maybe somebody would retire and I would change the job so that I could meet the budget. But that was just me surviving change or maybe accepting it because I had to do it as part of it. But then when I realized I needed to have a whole new role and a whole new organization to cover the inner city of New York, and I'm thinking, "I'm going to have to self-fund this," and now I'm starting to invent and create. So this was in the back of my head.
And then I met the guy... I met Freddy down in Puerto Rico, and I'm like, "This is the guy I want for this role." I still didn't have it authorized. I didn't have the money, but that was the possibility, inventing possibilities of this. And so then comes the time for the normal budget review and somebody else retires. And all of a sudden that was the window of change, the annual budget review plus somebody retiring allowed me to get the role approved and get Freddie in. So that was me creating over here as a possibility, waiting for the window to open for the right time.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
That's so similar to what we experienced over the last year or so. We lost a staff member, and because of that, a lot of our financial systems had to change. They were centered around one person. And when I had to reinvent our budget at the end of last year, I started to realize some unmet but unexpressed expectations that I had of our budget, and it helped me understand why for years, when I looked at the number at the end of the year and thought, "Why isn't that bigger than it is in our bank account at Fruitful? It's like, "Oh, because they would not have calculated it the way that I would've calculated it." So then that change, which was unpleasant, going into it and saying, "Okay, but if we have to do this anyway, we're going to do it the way that I want to do it because I have to live in it." And now I'm really pleased with it, and in part because I know it a lot better. But then also because it's the thing that I designed with expectations that I had never expressed, but was finally able to put out in the open and work towards them.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. Great example. I mean, it was painful to go through losing that person and then finding that you had to redo it, but now it's probably better than ever.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly clearer than ever. We got to the point where it's like, "Hey, we're going to succeed or fail on our own merits. There aren't hidden things in this budget. We're going to spend this, we're going to make this, or if we don't, it's going to be because we didn't make it." And it's like, well, that's... I'd rather live in that world than live in one where there's just little bits in the way that it's like, "Well, this can go wrong," and then whatever. It's like, "No, we're going to either hit our targets or we're not."
Kate Johnson:
See, isn't that fun? That's creation.
Raj Lulla:
Yes.
Kate Johnson:
That's what I love about change, and that's my favorite part of the three-step model we go through.
Raj Lulla:
We talked about the sort of the different types of change and then the opportunity that change brings and yet, we all still struggle with change. I think we can all recognize opportunities that we've had because of change, but we struggle with actually getting through it.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Why is that?
Kate Johnson:
We resist it, right?
Raj Lulla:
Mm-hmm.
Kate Johnson:
I should say I'm so grateful for the people who created this material that I teach now. They're actually clinical psychologists and social workers so it's very psychologically sound. I'm not. Hopefully, I'm psychologically sound, but I'm not a clinical psychologist or a social worker. But through this training, as I've been certified, what I have learned and what I know to be true is that most resistance is due to an emotional reaction. Most resistance. When people are resisting us, they are having an emotional reaction. A lot of times, not even on a topic that they are resisting you on.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, that's big. Can you give an example of where we'd see that in the workplace? So something somebody would resist, but it's actually about something else.
Kate Johnson:
Right, right. So go back to you not responding to the emoji, right?
Raj Lulla:
Right.
Kate Johnson:
Or before you added the emoji.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
They are having an emotional reaction to you potentially. Let's say they are not responding. And so naturally, most people go to the negative place and they may say, "Okay, is my job going to be at risk?" Maybe not in your company, but big corporations. Let's face it, people are... There's a lot of people being laid off now, and so that actually could be the truth, and that's the emotional reaction they're having. Or it could be they still remember the last time that they were laid off, and it's bringing back an emotion from when they were laid off before, or maybe their friend was laid off, or their parent was laid off, something like that. So that's the point is that that's why when corporations or big companies are telling you the change, and then somebody's raising their hand, "Wait a second, I have questions." And maybe the leader will feel like they're resisting it, instead of just saying, "Why do you feel that way?" What do think most leaders would do at that point when somebody has explained why we're doing the change, and then somebody comes with an resisting comment, what do you think most leaders do or many do at that point?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. I mean, they would either dismiss it, "Ah, we'll deal with that offline."
Kate Johnson:
Right. Yeah, there you go. Put that in the parking lot.
Raj Lulla:
Or they would reason it away.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. A lot of times they'll just repeat what they just said. "Clearly, you didn't understand what I just said. Let me explain again." Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And that's not what they need. If we can just remember most resistance is due to unresolved emotion, whether it has something to do with a topic or not, that's all we need to know. And once we can help people release that... It's very efficient, by the way. Very efficient. So then you can start going to inventing possibilities. I'm preparing for my next change workshop out in New Jersey in a few weeks, and it's with an e-commerce team. Talk about on the cusp of change for a consumer products company. So not like e-commerce at Amazon, it's e-commerce at brick and mortar or manufacturers, and there's just a lot of resistance from people in the organization. You got to find a new way to do the supply chain, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
There's resistance from supply chain because supply chain wants to keep the costs down. They don't want to do more skews. They don't want to have to figure out how to supply in a different way.
Raj Lulla:
I think something that's interesting about that is we went through EOS, the entrepreneur operating system, and one of the tenets of that is that people want to do a good job. And so when we have that change, and as employers, it's easy to go, "Ah, they're just upset because it's more work." It's like, "That's not actually true."
Kate Johnson:
Right.
Raj Lulla:
I think generally what is true is that they're willing to do whatever amount of work, but they want to have some assurance that they're going to succeed. And in places where there's ambiguity and it's like, "Well, okay, but after we do do the more skews, what's actually behind that?q What thing do we not know that I'm going to be held responsible for that..." It's all of those things and then those come from the other experiences where they were held responsible-
Kate Johnson:
Correct.
Raj Lulla:
... for something that wasn't their fault.
Kate Johnson:
Correct, yes.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. That's such a great... Because in our example of needing to see that I have seen something or have acknowledged what they said, it's like creative people just want to do creative work. And so when they feel like they're being held back from that, again, it can seem like a boss doesn't care. It can seem like... Even, I think one of the impressions for a while early in the company was that I was just lazy that I'm like... I wasn't I wasn't doing anything and I'm off having lunch with somebody or whatever. And it was like, "Well, he'll get here when he gets here." Meanwhile, I was doing business development. I was doing the role of four people to help [inaudible 00:39:57]
Kate Johnson:
I'm busy. I really [inaudible 00:39:59] I hear you. I value you, but-
Raj Lulla:
I'm doing this for you.
Kate Johnson:
I'm swimming here.
Raj Lulla:
Exactly. And so, yeah, just that little change. And then we also have this thing, now it's a Slack channel just called the Raj queue, and they know that they can go to our delivery manager, Ted, and say like, "Hey, I need Raj to see this and do it before the end of the day." And only those things get put in the Raj queue. Everything else, it's like, yep, we'll deal with it in a timely manner as much as possible, but if there are certain things that need to get popped to the front of the line, they have recourse for that now. And so they can get unblocked and continue their work because they want to do a good job. They are excellent people.
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely, absolutely. It's so important for all of us to remember every day people are not waking up saying, "How can I mess up my job today?" Right?
Raj Lulla:
It's very true. No one wants that. Even jobs that you don't like, you are trying not to mess up, generally, because the consequence of not having that job is much worse than having it. And most people would rather come to work and enjoy their job and do a good job because it's just more fun while you're there-
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
... to feel like you're more center of pocket, like you're doing the right thing.
Kate Johnson:
For sure. For sure.
Raj Lulla:
So you've talked about how the process of going through the change is difficult for people, and you gave us one of those things that helps with that, which is inventing possibilities, imagining what good can come of this. What are some of the other pieces? So you also, I guess, shared with... We have an emotional reaction, so we have to deal with that first and sometimes it's just acknowledging it and then inventing possibilities. And then, what else is there to get us through change after we've imagined what could be do we need to do next?
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. Well, really, it's taking action, but taking the right action versus any action.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And that's what a lot of times people will do if we're trying to get through change fast. If something happens, we're not super excited about it, like, "How can I get through this and get back to the life that I know and love, or the work that I know and love?" And so what'll happen is a lot of people will bypass the first two steps and go right to taking action, any action, versus the right action. But if we're diligent about it, as we teach in this workshop, if we're diligent about clearing the emotions so that we can clear the plate, have a clean palette, and then start really creating and inventing possibilities, and we go through a whole process on discipline, creative thinking process during that. When you really do that well, when we do that well, you know this from all the design you all do here, you are creating these things that you're not going to be able to do by yourself. You're going to need what?
Raj Lulla:
Help.
Kate Johnson:
Yes. And what do most people feel about help, asking for help?
Raj Lulla:
A weakness.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah. And so that's why a lot of times people would just rush through the change, do a action that they already know, and then they... "I'm done."
Raj Lulla:
Oh, yeah.
Kate Johnson:
We've then suboptimized the change process, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, and created a mess for ourselves that we're going to have to deal with later.
Kate Johnson:
It's going to come back.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
I love what you said about our natural reaction is to try to go back to how it was. Which, I don't know your experience, but my experience has been largely that that's never possible. I mean, if it is possible, it's rare. It is the exception, not the rule. We never really truly go back to how things were.
Kate Johnson:
No.
Raj Lulla:
And so that reaction is kind of a faulty one in us. When you talked about clearing the emotion, it reminded me of... I can't even really remember where I read it, but just this practice of sometimes when you're feeling bottled up and you're just like, "I don't know why I'm upset right now." Just literally saying it out loud, even by yourself, makes a huge difference.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
There were a couple of times in the years of a lot of diapers and not enough money and all of that, and I would just drive home, and I would talk out loud and just go, "I am upset that we don't have enough money right now."
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Raj Lulla:
And then you don't carry that home because you leave it in the car.
Kate Johnson:
Yes, yes.
Raj Lulla:
And I think we've learned to fear our feelings when you can clear them out by just going, "Hey, this is a feeling that I don't like to feel."
Kate Johnson:
Yes. Yes. I feel vulnerable, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. We learned that with our kids, that anger is a secondary emotion, that we use anger to feel powerful when we're feeling something else we don't want to feel.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
And so if your employees are getting grumpy, or if you're getting grumpy, then you're probably feeling something else that you don't want to feel.
Kate Johnson:
Oh, absolutely. Anger, they would say, is a presenting emotion.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
I like to call it brown paint, because anger is at top. Brown paint is made up of a lot of different colors. And so if we just stop and say, "I'm angry," that's a good start, but it's not enough. We got to really dig in and say, "What is it?" Because if we don't release the right emotion, we're going to do okay, but we're not going to do as great. It's still there, right?
Raj Lulla:
Right.
Kate Johnson:
So I mean, growing up in Jersey driving, I laugh. Of course, Rick's from Nebraska, I'm from New Jersey. And in Jersey, when somebody cuts you off, there might be some gestures that happen. And when I first got to Nebraska and I saw people shaking their head, I was like, "What's that about?" But the point is, if somebody cuts you off, whether you're in Nebraska or New Jersey, a lot of times we're like, "You stupid." Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yep, yep.
Kate Johnson:
So what it seems like is that our emotion is anger, but what is it really?
Raj Lulla:
It's fear.
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah, because we don't like that other people are driving two-ton machines in a way that might kill us.
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
But yeah, the easier reaction to reach for is, "What a jerk."
Kate Johnson:
Yes. So that's great you're teaching your children that because it's teaching them not to stop there. It's absolutely say you're angry and why. What else? And that's great you're teaching that now because my generation didn't have that. Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And I truly believe this, as I work with Gen Zs, they're much better at it than us boomers, right? Well, you're not, but yeah.
Raj Lulla:
I mean, yeah, we all come from a place though that just hasn't had those words. We haven't had those tools. And I liked that our country has been without global conflict for long enough that we can actually express those tools and be a healthier versions of ourselves.
Kate Johnson:
And it's not that our generation was bad. I mean, we tell people, I come home from basketball game, and what were the three things my dad would ask me? Did you win? Did you shoot? Did you score? All production ,back to our production piece, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yep.
Kate Johnson:
And that served me well in many cases. But he never said, "How did you feel about how you played?" That was never asked. Sorry, Dad.
Raj Lulla:
And I think that's thing, though, is every generation does the best that they can, and we pass on, hopefully, the best of what we can-
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
... so that the next generation can do better.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
That's the hope of a country is that the people who come behind you can do better. We get a little resentful about it sometimes, unnecessarily, but we want people in other generations to not have to live with trauma and unrealized potential.
Kate Johnson:
Right, right.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
That's why I love doing this, honestly. I love helping people thrive through change because it's going to impact not only their companies, but their families, their communities. It's very cool.
Raj Lulla:
I did have one other question for you about this. Taking the right action instead of just taking action, because sometimes I say the opposite about having a bias towards action because we can often get in our heads about, is this the exact right perfect decision, and we get this sort of analysis paralysis.
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
How do you balance those two things between I want to take the right action, but to not take action is also a choice.
Kate Johnson:
Absolutely.
Raj Lulla:
And so how do you balance those things?
Kate Johnson:
For me, in the case with respect to change, as long as I, or people have gone through the first two steps the best they could, then it's going to... It actually happens naturally. It really does. In fact, it actually happens naturally by clearing the emotions. Even if people haven't gone through the inventing possibility training with me, I will see people automatically... Your mind automatically goes there when you cleared it. So I would say it's going to absolutely happen too if people are still in a analysis paralysis. When I'm in analysis paralysis, that means I got to go back. There's still more fear there or still more emotion there that is holding me back from at least trying, right?
Raj Lulla:
That's great, yeah. That makes a lot more sense. Because I would get locked up in the "I have to take the right action." But really it's based in fear. Or take the perfect action, not the right action.
Kate Johnson:
Right, right, yeah.
Raj Lulla:
And I really love that idea that once you clear the emotion, generally you see it in a different way.
Kate Johnson:
Correct.
Raj Lulla:
And you're right, it's kind of just obvious at that point what the next step is. And once something becomes that clear, it's almost hard not to take that step.
Kate Johnson:
Yes.
Raj Lulla:
Well, why would I stay here if I know what I have to do next?
Kate Johnson:
Right, right, yeah. So I would say, go back and look at the emotions again and see if it opens up then. Or you might need more data. Sometimes when I'm stuck, I'm like, "I'm missing something still." Right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
But yeah, having a bias towards action, I can definitely appreciate that.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah. So it's like there's this funnel of dealing with the emotions and then inventing the possibilities and then identifying the action and taking it.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah.
Raj Lulla:
And if you get stuck at that bottom spot, it's because there's stuff from the other two that haven't filtered through critically.
Kate Johnson:
Probably. Or maybe you need to ask somebody. I mean, a part of taking the right action isn't always you doing it. It's asking somebody else where that you could ask for help or what other information that would help so that you can do it. So that's the thing. If it's really a big breakthrough thing, you're not going to be able to do it alone. Most of this stuff we're not going to be able to do it alone. And sadly, a lot of people still do it alone.
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
Yeah, so it could be the next action, taking the right action is going to get somebody who knows more about this area than you, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yeah.
Kate Johnson:
And that's could be a little scary because it's once again, showing vulnerability, right?
Raj Lulla:
Yep. Yeah. Kate, thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. I feel like I learn so much every time.
Kate Johnson:
Oh, my gosh, right back at you. Right back at you. Thank you.
Raj Lulla:
Where can people find you if they want to either take one of your workshops or have you come in and train their company? Where's the best place to find you?
Kate Johnson:
Awesome. Thank you for asking. Gracecampllc.com is the website, or they can email me at kate@gracecampllc.com.
Raj Lulla:
Perfect. And we'll put that in the show notes as well.
Kate Johnson:
Perfect. Thank You.
Raj Lulla:
Kate, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Kate Johnson:
Thank you, Raj. I love hanging out with you.
Raj Lulla:
We'll see you soon. Thanks.
Kate Johnson:
All right, take care.
Ben Lueders:
Thanks for joining us today on Growing a Fruitful Brand. If you found today's show helpful, don't forget to subscribe and consider sharing it with someone who might also enjoy it. If you'd like to work with Fruitful on a branding website or messaging project of your own, you can always reach out on our website fruitful.design. So until next time, don't forget to grow something good.
