Success is Helping Others Win
Tim Schurrer’s name is associated with success. With a resume that boasts recognizable brand names like Apple Inc. and TOMS, it’s hard to imagine Schurrer defining success any other way.
Schurrer is also the cofounder and former COO at StoryBrand, author, podcast host and is currently the CEO of the non-profit organization, David Novak Leadership, an organization that is developing purpose driven leaders at every stage in their development.
But, as Schurrer explains in his new book, The Secret Society of Success, the definition of success is intentional and personal; defined by living out your own purpose and serving others. Schurrer unpacks the idea that you don’t have to be in the spotlight to be successful or strive for fame, money, and power.
On this week’s episode of Growing a Fruitful Brand, Ben sits down with Schurrer for a truly inspirational conversation about how society defines success and how living up to our own definition not only makes our lives and careers more meaningful and fulfilling, but can also help others.
Check out the episode now, where you get your podcasts or you can watch it on YouTube.
Catch Tim Schurrer’s podcast, Build a Winning Team!
Ep. 23:
Success is Helping Others Win with Tim Schurrer
Automated Transcript
Ben Lueders:
Welcome to Growing a Fruitful Brand where we discuss how to create and grow a brand that makes the world a better place for you, your customers, and your employees. I'm Ben Lueders, founder and art director of Fruitful Design & Strategy. Tim Schurrer is the author of The Secret Society of Success, a book that shows you how to stop chasing the spotlight and learn to enjoy your work and life again. Tim spent almost a decade of his life as COO of StoryBrand alongside New York Times bestselling author, Donald Miller.
Before that, Tim worked at TOMS shoes, as well as a little place called Apple. In 2022, Tim became the CEO of David Novak Leadership, a 501c3 private operating foundation whose mission is to make the world a better place by developing better leaders at every stage of life. I hope our conversation will challenge your assumptions about what true success really looks like.
Tim, thanks so much for being on Growing a Fruitful Brand. You wrote this little book, The Secret Society of Success. What is The Secret Society of Success? Everyone wants to be a part of a secret society. That sounds cool. I'm in. What is that?
Tim Schurrer:
So I'll start with the story and get into some of that and how this whole secret society idea came to be. There's a lot of people that are familiar with Apollo 11. You've got Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, "one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." But a lot of people don't know that there was actually a third astronaut on that mission. So the guy's name is Michael Collins, and he is the one who actually Ubered Neil and buzzed to the moon.
So he gets them all the way to the moon, drops them off. Then those guys do all the stuff they have to do on the moon while he actually doesn't get to walk on the moon, but he stays back in the command module and orbits the moon 26 times until those guys are ready to be picked up and brought back to Earth.
Ben Lueders:
It's crazy.
Tim Schurrer:
But what I love so much about this story is that when Michael gets back to Earth and sits down with the press, he talks about how content he was to have had one of those three seats, which is a very different response than probably you and I would've had.
Ben Lueders:
No, total bummer, total bummer.
Tim Schurrer:
I would then bitter, resented the fact that I made it all the way there, and yet I didn't get to walk on the moon and make history in that way. But that's not at all how Michael responds. But connecting to this kind of larger story of all of us, which is do we have to walk on the moon to be happy? Is the only way that we can be successful in our lives and our careers is by walking on the moon or whatever version of that, that applies to our lives.
And so what I started to feel in my life was this kind of cultural narrative telling me that I am only successful if I'm in the spotlight, if I have a certain amount of money, fame, whatever. These are the only ways that you can be successful. But as then I tried to apply that narrative to my own life, that's just not been true.
And in fact, I've been really inspired by a group of people that I've come to now call The Secret Society of Success that have shown me a new way to live and a new way to define success. What I've learned is if we don't take the time and if we're not intentional about what success looks like for us personally, we subconsciously start living according to someone else's definition, which I think can lead us into a lot of trouble.
So the Michael Collins's of the world, he for me is this aspirational identity of somebody who has been very clear in his own life what success is, finding contentment in the seat that he sat in, but didn't spend a whole lot of time listening to these outside voices.
Ben Lueders:
Okay. So I'm hooked, I'm hooked. Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin. These are household names. These are guys that you might say were in the spotlight. And you talk a lot about this spotlight mindset that we can all find ourselves in. You're only successful if the spotlight is on you and not if you're behind the scenes or in the shadows like Michael Collins. So can you kind of unpack that spotlight mindset a bit and how hard it is maybe to erase it completely?
Tim Schurrer:
So I think this is an important distinction right off the bat, because I feel like when I was writing this book, something that I was wrestling with is I don't in any way want to villainize the spotlight because the spotlight is actually not the problem. Someone being in The Secret Society of Success, it actually has less to do with your position or how much visibility you have in your role, and more about the mindset in which you show up. If there is a common denominator for what it looks like to be in the secret society, it's this idea of helping others win and letting that-
Ben Lueders:
That's good.
Tim Schurrer:
... be a way that you define success. Success is helping others win. But on the flip side, the inverse of the secret society is the thing that I think is keeping us from the spotlight mindset. I just define that simply as an unhealthy desire for attention and recognition. There's a lot of different ways that the spotlight mindset can creep up in our lives. Comparison is one of the ways that the spotlight mindset can trip us up. Are you only measuring your success in comparison to how you are versus your friends or your colleagues or your neighbors, right?
Ben Lueders:
Yeah.
Tim Schurrer:
Striving is another symptom of the spotlight mindset. Are you able to find contentment or are you always striving and chasing after that next thing? Damaged relationship is another symptom. And sometimes this pursuit for what you think success is can actually be causing harm with the people around you that matter the most. And so there's just ways that this can trip us up, but I think the big idea is maybe there's some part of you, some piece that you just want the attention. You want the credit. You want just more than what you're getting right now in terms of your output and what you're given to the world, and how much appreciation or things that are coming back to you as a result of that.
Ben Lueders:
Well, Tim, obviously this doesn't apply to me at all. I don't struggle with this, but I hope that others can benefit from this, that struggle with that. I love what you said about it's not the spotlight that's bad because obviously we need people in the spotlight. There are certain roles. You need the Neil Armstrongs of the world. Someone has to walk on the moon. Right?
Tim Schurrer:
Yeah.
Ben Lueders:
In order for there to be a Michael Collins, you need a Neil Armstrong. I immediately think of people who find themselves not just striving for a spotlight, but who are maybe reading your book or listening to this podcast who are already in the spotlight. Do you have any pieces of advice for those people to cultivate this mindset of the secret society versus the mindset of needing to be in the spotlight?
Tim Schurrer:
So if you think about a concert, you need the person standing in the center of the stage for the whole thing to work. There's nothing wrong with being the person standing on center stage performing in front of a bunch of people. The thing that I struggle with is when everyone tries to say or communicate this idea that that is the only one role that matters, and I think that the opposite is true. Everyone has value and you contributing your part is you being at your best.
That's the team approach. Somebody that I've become friends with over the last year is a guy named David Novak. David is the former CEO of Yum Brands, which is the parent company of KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut.
Ben Lueders:
All my favorite things, all together.
Tim Schurrer:
So David grew Yum from $4 billion in revenue to 32 billion by the time he retired in 2016.
Ben Lueders:
Crazy.
Tim Schurrer:
So a lot of people say, "How in the world did you do that?" And the way that he did it was by creating a culture of recognition. Yum was famous for the recognition culture. And what David says is, taking people with you is the only way to get big things done. It's going from me to we in how you show up in your life, in your career. This is everyone playing their part. And so David knows every leader cast a shadow. People do what the leader does. And so he knew if he wanted to drive a recognition culture, it had to start with him. So he would visit restaurants all over the world and he would recognize people. And actually, I'm going to grab something on my shelf.
Ben Lueders:
Do it. This is great. We're doing it live.
Tim Schurrer:
So if anybody's watching on video, you are going to see a giant pair of teeth with some legs coming out of it. Right? So this is what David called his walk the talk teeth.
Ben Lueders:
Oh my goodness.
Tim Schurrer:
So this was his personal recognition award. So he would go out to the restaurant, see somebody doing something well and would recognize them for that behavior, the behaviors that he knew would drive the business. So maybe it was customer Romania, how they were so focused on creating a great experience for one of the customers. He'd write that on the recognition award and then he'd say, "Hey, I want to take a picture with you. I'll send you a frame copy of this picture. Do whatever you want with it, but know that I'm going to take a copy of this picture as well and put that up on the wall in my office. Because when people walk into the CEO's office at Yum, I want them to see that you're the kind of person who's making stuff happen around here."
So over time, what happened is he filled all of the walls to the point that he started hanging these pictures on the ceiling. So how can we show up if we're in a position in the spotlight? Right? David is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar brand. He had a million and a half employees, but David did not have the spotlight mindset one that is kind of making it all about him. And in fact, what he did is he valued every person's contribution. He knew that it was all about the team. Even just simply recognizing people for the things that they do that may or may not be recognized by others is some of what we can all do each and every day to make people feel a little less invisible, make them feel appreciated and valued.
Ben Lueders:
That's beautiful. Wow. Thanks for sharing that, Tim. One of the things that comes to mind as I'm hearing you talk is I think people really love to have three easy steps, three things they can do and ensure that they can always be a certain way and never be another way. But you kind of talk in your book about just living in this tension that it's not necessarily going to be three easy steps and now you've arrived, but it's going to kind of be a tension for the rest of your life. Anything to say there?
Tim Schurrer:
I felt this pressure from the publisher and people as I was writing this book to make it this linear path to say, one, two, three. You did it. Great job. But that's not how this works. In a faith context, for example, no one would ever be like, "You're like Jesus. You did it." Great job." It's like-
Ben Lueders:
Success.
Tim Schurrer:
... well, no-
Ben Lueders:
Mission accomplished.
Tim Schurrer:
That's not how this works. It's like every day, we, like you said, live in this tension between the spotlight mindset. The thing that by default makes us want that attention and recognition for what we do. And the other side, which is the secret society, which is where maybe you're not thinking about yourself much at all, and in fact thinking more about how you can be showing up and serving the people alongside you.
But that's a journey, and that is truly a decision that we do often have to make multiple times a day. Which direction are you going to head? And so for me, what I'm trying to do is each and every day live in the way of the secret society a little bit more often than maybe I did the day before. And I feel like if I do that, that is me headed on a better path.
Ben Lueders:
So Tim, in your book you say that success is in the assist and you make a case for teamwork like you just were a minute ago and against this kind of individual mindset of, you needing to be in the spotlight. How does this jive with the story brand concept of all of us being heroes on a mission? Does this work with that mindset or is it intentional with that?
Tim Schurrer:
So I actually think it's perfectly aligned in that. One of the big paradigm shifts of StoryBrand is your brand is not the hero. Your brand is the guide. And so if you as a company are looking at your customers saying, "Hey, how can I help you? How can I solve the problems that you're up against each and every day? And you're the Yoda to the Luke Skywalker. I actually think that's saying the exact same thing. What if the story is not about you? And what if actually this is you looking out leveraging your skills and your abilities to help somebody else win?
There's this quote that's pretty famous from Zig Ziglar. And he says, "Help enough people get what they want and ultimately you'll get what you want." I like a good part of that quote, but I also have some caution with that quote. I like it the first half, help enough people get what they want. The caution and the slippery slope can be, and ultimately you'll get what you want because to me that's setting this up as a transactional relationship.
I'm only going to help you win so that I can get my own success, have something that is in it for me. And I think that the healthiest version of this secret society would say, "Hey, I'm going to help you get what you want, and I'm actually going to be content playing that part." That's actually where I'm going to find fulfillment and meaning. Whether or not I get the accolade for contributing to your success or not is that's not important. I feel content knowing that I was able to play some small part in your story.
So this is a very challenging thing to do. This is actually way easier said than done, but I do mean it when I say, "I think that that's the healthiest version of us and I'm guilty of not showing up that way." Sometimes I want to help somebody because I know the thing that I'm going to get in return, but it's actually on my healthy days when I'm less concerned about what I get out of it and just very content and I'm happy to be a part of contributing to somebody else's success.
Ben Lueders:
Tim, one of the things that I've been thinking about sitting here, and I didn't send this over ahead of time in the question, so I don't mean to pull a fast one on you, but since you've come out with this book, I'm just curious, how have you had to battle the spotlight mindset of being this guy who wrote this book and being asked to be on podcasts? I imagine there would be more of a challenge when you've been elevated to a certain... You have this really cool marker of worldly success coming out with your own book. I'm curious, has it been kind of a struggle? Yeah. How have you dealt with it since the success of that book?
Tim Schurrer:
Well, I think you write the book that you need yourself, right? You're up against a challenge in your own life and you're not really seeing somebody else give you a solution to it. So I feel like this whole book was created to solve my own problem, which is I too struggle with the spotlight mindset each and every day, and yet the person that I want to be, the aspirational identity is more like a Michael Collins.
So I felt like I wrote the book as much to just help myself, keep me focused on the north star, which is reminding me that, hey, helping others win is success. But you're right, there are challenges. And challenges would be something like, "Okay, what does a successful author's career look like?" I guess we could do some quotes around this. Right?
The successful author has sold tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of copies. A successful author has a large social media following. A successful author is just bombarded with speaking requests. And so what I have to be careful of is not to measure or define success simply just by looking at those metrics and then comparing where I am to those metrics, but in fact, do what the book says, which is what is success for me?
At the very opening of the book, I have a dedication page for my five-year-old and two-year-old. It says, "To Judson and El, may you learn to live in the way of the secret society." Look, I hope that other people benefit from this as well, but even if it's just my two kids, I actually feel like that is success. Me to be able to help coach and guide them on, "I've learned a few things so far in my life and this is what I hope that I can do to help you on your path as you get older and start to navigate your life and your career. Here's what I think really matters." And I get tears in my eyes thinking about that, but that is success for me. It's very easy to get tripped up by this idea that success equals X number of books sold.
Would I like to do that and sell thousands and thousands? Absolutely. But not because I want more people to know my name, but actually because I believe in this message so much and believe that it can help people. So there is this constant struggle of what is the intention behind why you're doing anything? Because I think that you could release a book with a very unhealthy mindset and be all about the numbers, be all about trying to become more known and all that, but you could do the exact same activities in a more healthy headspace and it feel very meaningful and fulfilling.
And it's like, "Look, I'm going to do all of these things, not because I need more people to know my name, but because I believe in this message and because I truly am trying to serve the reader, the person listening to this podcast who's on their own journey trying to define success or maybe is feeling this amount of discontent in their life and their career." And maybe by hearing you and I talk, they think, "Maybe the way that I'm looking at success today is a little wonky and maybe this will help them make a little quarter turn on how they're thinking about some of these things." And that to me is success. So I feel like I've had to really ask myself what is success and keep my eyes on my own scorecard, if you will.
Ben Lueders:
One of the best things about this book to me is it's just chock-full of great stories about different people who are living this way. I just want to know if you could just share a story or two that really shows The Secret Society of Success.
Tim Schurrer:
I spent three years of my career working at Apple, and as I think back when I first started Apple, the CEO at the time was Steve Jobs. He was my boss.
Ben Lueders:
That's so cool.
Tim Schurrer:
I didn't get to hang out with him, but he was my boss. I get to say that for forever. I've been really inspired by how the leaders at Apple do show up. The person who's now the CEO, most people know is Tim Cook. And at the release of the Apple Watch, Tim Cook is interviewed after this big announcement on national television and David Muir asked him, "Is this the moment for you, the moment of your career at Apple?" And if you realize where Tim is at in his life when asked that question, I think it makes his response even more incredible, because here he is a CEO, just a couple years into his journey, and this is the first time that Apple had released a product without Steve Jobs.
This is a new product in a new category. The Apple Watch did not exist when Steve Jobs was alive. And so Tim, this needs to go well for him. Right? This is his moment to show everybody that he's the one to take the company into this next era. So you would think that he would want to respond with, "This is the moment of my career and this is cementing me as blah, blah, blah," whatever somebody would say if they really wanted to take the credit.
But what I love is how Tim actually responds. So when asked, "Is this the moment for you, the moment of your career at Apple?" Tim pauses for about a half a second and then says, "Well, it's a moment for Apple. I don't really think about myself that much." And that response tells me everything that I need to know about how Tim Cook shows up as a leader.
It's Humble confidence. It's the humility to know that he couldn't have created this thing alone. How many employees did it take to make an Apple Watch? Hundreds if not thousands. But it's also confidence enough in his own contribution that he didn't need to remind us what part he played in this. He got to just give the credit away to his team. And I keep this plaque on my desk and it's this replica of a plaque that sat on Ronald Reagan's desk when he was president. And it says, "There is no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit."
Ben Lueders:
Oh, I'm so glad you got into this. That was one of my favorite parts in the book, is just such a good quote. Unpack that for us.
Tim Schurrer:
Yeah. It was like, what if success is actually in not needing the credit? Because I think that the way that success is defined by culture today is you are only successful if you are recognized for doing X. That recognition can come in a lot of different ways. Maybe that's you having this giant platform or you getting that award or whatever. But what I think Tim talks about through his answer and what this quote talks about is that what if we just got lost in doing the work?
We weren't so worried about getting the credit for having done the thing or people knowing how many team members we have or caring about how much revenue our company has. These are all of these scoreboards that society is pointing back to say, "If you have contributed to these results, therefore you are successful." And I just really like how this puts an emphasis on, again, that idea of keeping your eyes on your own paper and finding contentment, doing the work and focusing more on that than the recognition or credit that you would potentially get for having done that work.
Ben Lueders:
One thing that I've noticed, Tim, as my team has grown... We're still a small team. We're only eight people." But you start realizing how little credit you deserve. There's so many people that make everything run on time and get everything done that it's interesting. I think from the outside, some people might think like, "Wow, you've got a whole team behind you that you're leading this team. You must have it all figured out." But it's weird. I feel like as time goes on, I feel like I know less and less and that I'm contributing less and less to any level of success that our company has.
I'm more and more amazed by the people around me who are getting things done. And so I've found that leading a team can be a really humbling thing because you surround yourself with people that are better at things than you are who are maybe smarter than you are. And you start realizing, "Wow. There's no way I'd be where I am today if it wasn't for these yokels getting stuff done and really contributing."
So that's always been something that's helped I think keep me grounded to whatever degree of grounded I am, I guess. I think sometimes I can get in my head as I start thinking about more solo projects and stuff like that. And like you, you got into wanting to be the next John Mayer in your book. I thought that was a fun story. For me, I'm also a musician and like everyone was, I think when they were younger and I had aspirations for starting a band and cutting the album and changing the world and being famous and everything as well.
It's interesting how as life goes on and depending on where you are in your stage of life, you mentioned your kids a second ago in the front of this book. And for me, we're going on kid number five right now, believe it or not, and it's crazy that the more you've got a wife, you've got kids, it's like the more people are dependent on you, the more you can live for more people than just yourself. It's a bit of a humbling thing when you're surrounded by a team and a family and you start realizing, "Man, we all need each other and I need them as well."
Tim Schurrer:
So I started this role as the CEO of David Novak Leadership. So I talked about David just a little bit ago. So after David retired from Yum Brands, he started a nonprofit and the mission is make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And so this summer David said, "Hey, would you consider becoming CEO of this nonprofit?" And I immediately said, "Yes, let's do it."
Ben Lueders:
I'd do it.
Tim Schurrer:
Having the opportunity to learn from him each and every day has been a remarkable experience. So I step into this role August 1st, and a lot of people are used to looking to the CEO for the vision, the company strategy like, "Where are we going?" And there's a pressure that I felt to be that guy where I'm the one bringing all the answers. But when I think back to the projects that I've been a part of that have been very successful, it's been me as a contributor to that group of people and in fact bringing together a group of people to create and make the thing.
And so what I did and am doing all the time is whenever we have a big problem that we need to tackle, I don't try to do it by myself. I just invite other people into the room and we create the strategy together. It's been so freeing for me because it allows me to have that reminder that this is not about me being the hero coming in here with this big strategy.
I mean, I have some opinions on where it is I think that we could go, but I also want to bring that idea to everybody and help them based on them bringing their own expertise and some of these certain areas and shaping what it is that we want to do together.
So what I really appreciate is when you start to just think of yourself as a team member, someone coming in with your piece of the puzzle and allowing yourself to be that versus feeling like you got to bring the whole puzzle, it's very freeing so I highly recommend it.
Ben Lueders:
That's great. That reminds me of my business partner and co-host, Raj, which I know. He's really good about, "Hey, let's get the team together and let's brainstorm and figure this out together." I'm kind of the creative type. I feel like I need to go into my little hobbit hole and figure everything out, get everything perfect and then present. I always find it goes over a little flat on the team because they didn't get to be a part of it. And yet, Raj, he'll be like, "Hey, let's get everyone together, get on the whiteboard." Everyone is throwing around ideas. And it always tends to go a lot better when you build things that way.
I mean, not just because you have people's buy-in, but also you're just benefiting from all that talent and perspective that's outside yourself. So highly recommend that as well.
Tim Schurrer:
David says all the time, no involvement, no commitment.
Ben Lueders:
It's true. It's totally true. In your book, you quote Andy Stanley. He says, "You should be asking the question, who am I here for, not why am I here?" What does that mean to you?
Tim Schurrer:
I heard Andy Stanley speak at this event in 2017, and that was part of the keynote that he presented that day. And the event was around finding your purpose. And as some people are trying to find their purpose, their place in this world. They ask, "Why am I here?" Right?
Ben Lueders:
Right.
Tim Schurrer:
That's a very normal question where all of us ask.
Ben Lueders:
It's a classic question.
Tim Schurrer:
But Andy says, "That's the wrong question. The question we need to ask is, who am I here for?" And what I love about that question is it requires us to bring our skills, our talents, our abilities, our unique gifting. We bring all that to the table, but it has us in this head space of doing all that, bringing that to the table to help somebody else.
I love that concept so much that when I got back to my office, I was working at StoryBrand at the time, I actually created an eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper and up at the top in big, bold letters, I wrote, "Who am I here for?" And below it, I put the pictures and the names of every single person on my team and their families.
Ben Lueders:
Wow.
Tim Schurrer:
Because I needed that simple reminder that on the days when... I mean I'm sure you have these days, an endless inbox, your tasks that just will never stop.
Ben Lueders:
This might be one of those days, Tim. Why did you have to bring that up?
Tim Schurrer:
The calendar, all the colors are touchy, right? It's on those days, you just want to beeline it to your desk, think about yourself, get your stuff done like, "Please no one bother me." But it was on those days that I just wanted that simple reminder to say, "Who am I here for?" Just as a reminder of just having my antenna up for how I can actually be coming alongside the people on my team and helping them win.
Ben Lueders:
Oh, yeah. That's good. I was just going to say, one of the things I love about that is that it's Andy Stanley's question is a question you can actually answer. I think when you're asking, "Why am I here?" It's this real vague existential question and it may make you ponder and think about all the things you could be doing or should have done. Whereas who am I here for? You can just look around and figure it out pretty fast. It's like there's some real obvious answers there, and you can actually make some progress.
Tim Schurrer:
Yeah. I just love the head space that it puts you in when you think that way. I think if all of us were to ask that question, who am I here for as a leader? Who am I here for as a spouse or a parent? Who am I here for as a business? Now all of a sudden you're kind of bringing yourself to the table, but you're outside of yourself. You're thinking about something bigger than just you.
Ben Lueders:
Tim, thanks so much for being on Growing a Fruitful Brand. This has been a great conversation. I'm very inspired. I hope I can be a part of the secret society. Something I've always wanted to do. If you had a closing thought, kind of a north star for our listeners, what would that be?
Tim Schurrer:
I love this quote by a guy named Albert Schweitzer, and it's this, "I don't know what your destiny will be. Some of you'll perhaps occupy remarkable positions. Perhaps some of you'll become famous by your pens or as artists, but I know one thing, the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve." And to me, that's it. What is it that we're talking about? How can we define success a little bit differently today than perhaps we did yesterday?
And so if I were to ask anyone listening, all right, success is fill in the blank? The way that I am now looking at success is success is not fame, and money, and power. It's not stepping into the spotlight, climbing the ladder. Success to me is helping others win. It's giving other people credit. It's recognizing others. It's contributing to a larger whole.
And I feel like if we take steps in that direction, that's what it looks like to live in the way of the secret society. And I think that is us at our best. So there's going to be days that we're challenged. Right? The spotlight mindset is going to continue to pop up for us. But the important thing, I think, is the self-awareness that that's even happening and then making the decision in those moments to maybe take a little bit of a different turn and start to head and live in the way of the secret society.
Ben Lueders:
All right, everyone, make sure to buy this book. I hope you're really intrigued by this conversation. We'll have a link in the show notes. I told Tim this when I met him in Nashville a few months ago, but it's got a beautiful design for you designers out there. I really like it. One of my favorite things is these little, really nicely, Instagramable pages of quotes. Some of them are yours, some of them are others, like this one of John Mark Comer. But I really love that and it's a really great way to scan it too right before you have someone on the podcast to remember what's in the book. So highly recommend it. Tim, thank you so much for being on Growing a Fruitful Brand.
Tim Schurrer:
Thanks for having me. Loved it. Appreciate you guys.
Ben Lueders:
Thanks for joining us today on Growing a Fruitful brand. If you found today's show helpful, don't forget to subscribe and consider sharing it with someone who might also enjoy it. If you'd like to work with Fruitful on a branding website or messaging a project of your own, you can always reach out on our website, fruitful.design. So until next time, don't forget to grow something good.
